Mystery: Unreleased August 1980 studio videotape footage of John performing Double Fantasy songs

[nutopia999]

On August 18, 1980, Jack Douglas’ friend, director Jay Dubin, was hired to videotape promotional footage of John & Yoko performing a few Double Fantasy songs at The Hit Factory studios. This footage is historically significant as it is the final footage of John performing music.

The videotaping session occurred during the evening of Aug. 18 and into the early morning hours of Aug. 19. “I’m Losing You” and “I’m Moving On” were definitely recorded, and possibly one or two other songs. Additionally, some live studio jams and/or warm up rehearsals **might** have been captured on videotape, but this is not confirmed.

Producer Jack Douglas, who saw the videotape footage, described the footage of John as “fantastic” and “beautiful.”

Director Dubin videotaped John from four different camera angles, and he videotaped the Double Fantasy session musicians as well, with the intention of editing all the various camera angles and musicians together in post-production to create polished professional music promotional videos.

However, John wore his hair in a ponytail for the video shoot, and he apparently didn’t like how his hair looked in the footage. So after a few performance takes, John decides to cover up his hair and wear a baseball cap for the rest of his takes. This info is known because the Jack Douglas "hidden mic" tapes leaked in the 1980s, capturing John's dialogue with the Director that night.




Mr. Dubin’s videotapes were given to John & Yoko at the end of the session that night and never edited. Photos of John taken later the same week confirm he got his long hair cut off -- probably at Vidal Sassoon Salon at 803 Madison Avenue.

One perennial mystery is: Did John destroy some (or all) of the August 1980 videotape performance footage of himself because he didn't like his hair -- or did he simply file the videotapes away in the Lennon tape archive? And if the video footage exists in whole (or in part), what happened to it?

All the evidence thus far suggests there were only two total open reel Type C 1-inch videotapes recorded:

• Roll #1: John
• Roll #2: Yoko

It's been confirmed by directors Michael Epstein and Andrew Solt that "Roll #2"(Yoko's roll) exists in the Lennon archive, but "Roll #1" (John's roll) is missing.

So what happened to John's footage?

Way back in 2010, I started a thread on the Steve Hoffman Music Forums to try and determine the fate of John’s 1980 videotape footage.

I read that Beatles author Jörg Pieper had written a book in which his research led him to believe that at least some of John’s Hit Factory videotape footage survives.

So I invited Mr. Pieper to the thread to share what he had learned. Below is his post from Sept. 16, 2010 sharing his research findings that John’s Hit Factory videotape footage was **apparently stolen** from The Dakota sometime between 1980 – 1982, and the stolen videotape footage of John includes performances of "I'm Losing You" and "Starting Over."

Several years later, in 2015, Mr. Pieper’s theory that John’s footage exists was verified to be true when stills and a snippet of video of John performing in August 1980 at The Hit Factory surfaced online.

If John's Hit Factory performance videotape footage was stolen from The Dakota sometime between 1980 -1982, I hope it is repatriated to the Lennon family.

The three stills below are from the brief snippet of footage that surfaced online in 2015. Note the clapperboard says "Roll #1." This is the videotape reel apparently missing from the Lennon archive and presumed to have been stolen in the early 1980s. John is wearing what appears to be Yoko's white baseball cap.








Below: 2010 post by author Jörg Pieper explaining his theory that John's videotape reel was stolen from The Dakota

=========================================================================

Source: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...nnon-music-videos.220986/page-11#post-5805747

By @beatlesonvideo

Jörg Pieper
September 16, 2010

Hello from Germany

Sorry for slow response, I was away from my PC for a while. I see you have an interesting discussion over here about one of my all time favourites: "DF footage".

To keep your expectations low, I confirm that I never saw any of John's part. My story starts many years ago with the Japanese TV special "Tsukai Ningen-Den" (1992), a good japanese contact told me that Yoko's brother Keisuke could shed some light onto Yoko's DF scenes. I was able to track down Keisuke's private Email address and I really got an answer after a while. He simply said that he don't want to be bothered about it and I should contact Yoko's lawyer. I never did !

After seeing the production board from Yoko's part, I never had any doubt that we are at least talking about two different 1" tapes, my theory: #1 John footage #2 Yoko footage, simple as that.

While researching for my first book "The Beatles Film & TV Chronicle 1961-70" I was in touch with somebody from the ORF (Austria), we had a friendly chat over the phone and he mentioned some rare film material incl. some DF footage. Through this friendly person I got a copy of a personal letter to him by somebody that I will simply call "X". In the letter from 1982 "X" mentions a 20 minute DF video tape. My co-author tracked down "X" and after a few phone calls we got the information that the footage includes scenes of I'm loosing You and Starting Over.

All this would simply explain why Yoko has never used any of John's scenes because she can't, because all her documentary stuff was done after 1982.

How did the tape #1 leave the Dakota ? Well, I leave this up to your own imagination. What can "X" do with this footage ? At the moment nothing.

So there is no big talk about it because all the copyrights belong to Yoko and we know how she handles it (see Tony Cox footage Feb.1970)

I'm some of you is asking about the identity of "X", I will not disclose it.

If you ask for any definitive proof of my story/theory, I can't offer any.

What can we do, nothing, it all depends on "X".

Best regards,
Jörg

 

[nutopia999]

In 2015, after a snippet of John's 1980 Hit Factory videotape surfaced online, Director Jay Dubin posted this message on his Facebook page:

"I remember that day. I had an early type of mobile phone. Was standing in front of the Waverly theater on 6th Ave. when I got a call from some guy with an English accent claiming to be John Lennon. Thought it was a joke then Jack Douglas got on the phone. Said that really is John Lennon and asked me to get my crew together and get up to the Hit Factory ASAP. When we got there, John was in the studio with Jack... Jack took us in and introduced us to John. We shot several songs. One with Yoko. The footage in question was from one of 4 camera angles. We got a good audio take and ran that as a playback for the other angles. John was a pretty easy guy to get along with. He especially hit it off with our grip, Freddy Shiferman. The most amazing part of the evening was when Freddy asked John “You do bar mitzvahs?” John answered “Weddings too.” Then they sat down together at the piano and sang a duet of Feelings. The crew wrapped up. I hung around for a while talking to Jack and John about finishing the video. Yoko sat on the footage for some time talking about it being part of some larger documentary. Then he died. I never got a chance to edit it together. and haven't seen it since."

 

[beatlesaint]

The footage that appeared on You Tube and also on bootleg DVDs was B roll footage which is why its mainly consisting of John's hands, the guitar and a few head shots looking upwards.

The Roll#1 would be the main John video, this is what he either destroyed in the bath as the story goes or it was indeed filed away in the Lenono archive. If it was stolen, and given what some people "walked out" of The Dakota in the early 80's then I'm surprised after all these years some of this Roll 1 hasnt seen the light oif day.........the question then of course is where does the B Roll footage which is out there come from? That sounds to me like that was a stolen item for sure as it was sat on for years then made an appearence over 30 years later.

We have already seen from the Mind Games promotion that Sean has found and released footage we have never seen before so (and by his own admission is steadily but surely working his way through the archive), just maybe, when he and the team get to the Double Fantasy boxset something will find its way out. Its probably safe to say if we dont see any 1980 studio footage used to promote that (or integrated into it) then it really doesnt exist or has been "lost".

It's always been a holy grail of footage for me so i'm hoping that Sean discovers it deep within The Dakota vaults.

 

[nutopia999]

The Roll#1 would be the main John video, this is what he either destroyed in the bath as the story goes or it was indeed filed away in the Lenono archive. If it was stolen, and given what some people "walked out" of The Dakota in the early 80's then I'm surprised after all these years some of this Roll 1 hasnt seen the light oif day.........the question then of course is where does the B Roll footage which is out there come from? That sounds to me like that was a stolen item for sure as it was sat on for years then made an appearence over 30 years later.

Footage from John's "Roll #1" videotape reel has seen the light of day. In fact, it's the close-up hand insert footage that surfaced online back in 2014/2015.

That's why I'm convinced at least some (if not all) of John's "Roll #1" videotape reel survived.

Some may push back against my conclusion and argue the leaked 2014/2015 footage must be from insert shots recorded after Yoko's takes on Roll #2.

But the Jack Douglas hidden mic tapes that were recording during the videotaping confirm that Director Dubin also recorded close up shots of John's hands BEFORE Yoko's performance takes on Reel #2.

The below dialogue between John and director Dubin during the taping of takes for "I'm Losing You" proves that Dubin did videotape close ups of John's hands earlier in the evening, and the director was clearly not satisfied with the close-up hand footage he took earlier. That's why he asked John if he could take more footage of John's hands.

Jay Dubin : "John, you can take off now. We're just gonna shoot the band."
John : "I will any minute. Yeah, we've got enough there."
Jay Dubin : "Oh yeah, we've got plenty. We don't have many real closeups
of the hands playing guitar as much though."
John : "OK. you got them last time, didn't you?"
Jay Dubin : "Not that many."
John : "When you wanna do it, tell me when, anytime. It's easy."
Jay Dubin : "Do you wanna do a few of them now, while we're still here?"
John : "I think, let's get these guys, give me a break, and then do me when they're finished.
Before you set up for the next one."
Jay Dubin : "Fine, that's what we'll do."

In summary, based on this exchange, we would expect to see insert close up shots of John's hands on Reel #1 from an earlier attempt, and that's exactly what we do see on the 2014/2015 leaked snippet.

See my notations in the graphic below. John is standing directly behind the "Roll #1" clapperboard. That clinches it in my view. At a minimum, some of John's "Roll #1" had to survive long enough to be transferred or this performance footage would not exist.

John may (or may not) have destroyed part of the "Roll #1" videotape because he didn't like his hair, but if he did so, he didn't destroy the entire "Roll #1" videotape, because we are looking at the footage from "Roll #1" with our own eyes.

My guess is a Lennon employee or insider with access to the Lennon tape archive may have stole or copied "Roll #1" sometime between 1980-1982. I base this conclusion on the 1982 letter about the footage that Beatle author Jörg Pieper discovered (see earlier post). The footage that leaked in 2014/2015 may ultimately derive directly or indirectly from that presumed 1980-1982 tape theft (or copy).

 

[nutopia999]

A radio station interviewed Yoko in 2015 and asked her about the snippet of John's 1980 Hit Factory footage that had recently surfaced online.

Yoko's reply that she doesn't have the footage reinforces my theory that someone stole John's "Roll #1" videotape sometime during 1980-1982 timeframe. A tape theft would explain why the footage has never been used in a Lennon biography or documentary over the years.

Listen to Yoko's 2015 radio interview here about John's 1980 Hit Factory video footage: http://977rocks.com/wp-content/uplo..._1980_John_Lennon_Hit_Factory_Footage.mp3?_=1

Yoko Ono Lennon: “No, I don’t have it. I mean, if I had it, y’know, it’s a different story. Where is it, though? I mean, I’d like to know. ‘Cause, ‘I’ll tell you what, a lot of things got lost, as well. I mean, if somebody has it, they should return it to me. Y’know, somebody who’s got something like that should know, y’know, that it’s nothing to them now if you don’t give me a very clear, clean copy. And once that’s out there and they, y’know, whatever you own is going to be a bit more valuable, isn't it? Just letting you know.”

 

[beatlesaint]

Thats very interesting nutopia 999, thankyou.

 

[Starshyne9]

#1 lost Lennon media for sure. I hope to someday see all of this footage.

 

[nutopia999]

How many total open-reel, 1-inch Type C videotapes did Jay Dubin’s crew record of John & Yoko at The Hit Factory?

To date, I haven’t seen evidence that more than two videotape reels were recorded and handed over. Were there more?

Portable 1-inch Type C portable "suitcase" field recorders of the era (Sony BVH-500, Ampex VPR-20) could only accommodate nine-inch coaxial stacked tape reels, which translates to a maximum record time of about 63 minutes per reel.

Director Jay Dubin's technical remarks:

• “…it was a 2 camera live shoot, on 1 inch video tape.” -- Jay Dubin, April 15, 1997 interview with Vintagebb.com
• “The footage in question was from one of 4 camera angles. We got a good audio take and ran that as a playback for the other angles.” – Jay Dubin, Aug. 10, 2015, Facebook

Did Mr. Dubin’s crew select “live” between two camera angles routed to a single portable 1-inch video tape recorder when recording the master take of John's live vocal and guitar (presumably a wide and medium camera view)? And did they then use the audio from this master take (fed back through the console by Jack Douglas) to record the two additional “insert” camera angles (face and hand close ups) inside the cramped vocal isolation booth?

None of Mr. Dubin’s clapperboard slates for the close-up inserts recorded inside the vocal booth indicate more than one camera was used.

 

[CynCP]

I appreciate everyone's research and documentation on this subject! This footage would also be a "holy grail" item for me. I have the Taschen book with Kishin Shinoyama's exquisite photos from the Double Fantasy / Milk and Honey period and the thought of someday seeing (and hearing) footage from those sessions is very exciting.

 

[nutopia999]

The Jack Douglas hidden mic tapes show that John and the Double Fantasy band also jammed on songs like "Dream Lover," "Stay," "Mystery Train," "I'm A Man" and "She's A Woman" on the day of the videotaping. Some of these loose jams may have also been captured on the videotape/s.

 

[nutopia999]

Depending on who you ask, the videotapes were destroyed by submerging them in water, setting them on fire, or flushing them down the toilet...

JACK DOUGLAS (Producer, Double Fantasy): "Now here's what... I asked John where it was, I've heard two things. "I tore it up in the bathtub," "I sunk it in the pool."... But I heard that it exists somewhere…" -- Ken Sharp interview with Jack Douglas, Beatlefan #116

JON SMITH (Assistant Engineer, Double Fantasy): "John told us that he watched them and he said he hated the video so he destroyed the tapes. He told us that he pulled the tape out of their shells and flushed them down the toilet.” -- Ken Sharp interview with Jon Smith, Starting Over: The Making of John Lennon and Yoko Ono's Double Fantasy

YOKO: “I think that the only thing that was filmed was "I'm Moving On" and "I'm Losing You." And the way it was filmed was so bad, and when John saw it he said "Oh" (laughs), you know. Well, he didn't say anything. He was just so totally upset. He took the, the whole negative of the film and--put it in the bathtub (laughs) and--and--filled with water. I don't know if it--just filling it with water is going to destroy it, but that--that was how he wanted to destroy it (laughs)." Sept. 7, 2000 interview with Jody Denberg

On Sept. 18, 2024, @javilu77 posted on the Steve Hoffman Forum that photographer Bob Gruen told him he set the video footage on fire:

@javilu77 : "I've asked Bob Gruen about these and he replied that John hated how thin he looked in the footage and ordered Gruen to put the film in a bathtub and set it on fire, which he did."

REVOLVER RECORDS (aka @keith27012) who first posted the snippet of John's footage on YouTube in 2015 wrote: "I am a retired former record store owner from N.Y.C...Yoko has not wanted to release any of this footage because John did not like the way it looked but despite rumors to the contrary it is neiher lost nor stolen it exists in her archives. All us collectors have are copies...There is no particular reason for why now other than i've been collecting videos since the 1970s but i just started my You Tube channel within the past few months. The I'm Losing You footage i have only acquired recently and i understand there were 4 different reels from 4 different camera angles but only this one you see has fallen into the hands of a few collectors." Source: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...dio-footage-found-im-losing-you.454497/page-8

 

[nutopia999]

What do you guys think happened to John's videotape footage?

If Bob Gruen set fire to John's Hit Factory videotape footage in a bathtub, he would need to first remove the metal reel from the protective case, some of which were "flame retardant" and made from self-extinguishing UL-rated material (see below). Next, to ensure complete destruction, Mr. Gruen might have wanted to unspool the two reels of 1-inch Type C videotape (one reel for each video camera) since these were probably wound on 9-inch metal reels. A 9-inch reel is the maximum size that portable Type C video recorders of the era could accommodate. Each reel would likely contain 66 minutes of videotape (the maximum amount a 9-inch reel can hold). A single 66-minute reel contains 3,170 feet of videotape.

Videotape contains Chromium dioxide (CrO2). When burned, it combines with oxygen to form Chromium trioxide (CrO3) which is toxic and carcinogenic. Imagine the amount of toxic smoke generated from 6,340 feet of burning videotape in your bathtub.

Wouldn't it be easier for John to get a tape degausser to erase them? Or easier yet, wouldn't it be simpler to just file the videotapes in the Lenono Studio One archive and not use them?

And why are there multiple differing versions of the tape destruction? By bath water, by toilet and by fire?

(The first image below is satire...).

 

[nutopia999]

Two accounts of who director Jay Dubin gave The Hit Factory videotapes to and when.

===================================================================

Account #1: Ken Sharp interview with Stan Vincent, published in 2010

Stan Vincent (Jack Douglas’s business partner): "At the end of the session I turned around to the video director and said, “Give me all the tapes." So the guy gives me these reel-to-reel videotapes. John and Yoko are walking out and they're headed for the elevator. The door started to close, I run to the elevator, hold the door open, and take these tapes and thrust them at John and said, “Here, take these!" And he turns around and hands them back to me and goes "No, you hold 'em." (laughs) And I take them and go, "No, no, no, here!" And that's the last I saw of those tapes (laughs)."

Source: Starting Over: The Making of John Lennon and Yoko Ono's Double Fantasy, by Ken Sharp, pp. 124-125

==========================================================================

Account #2: Songfacts interview with video director Jay Dubin, December 17, 2014

Songfacts: "You were also planning on doing the video for John Lennon's Double Fantasy that got scrapped."

Jay Dubin: "Yeah, we did it. It never got released. He died. I got a lift back from John in the limo and he dropped me off."

Songfacts: "There are some film stills that surfaced on a Beatles blog over the summer that are supposedly from that session."

Jay Dubin: "I have no idea. He died, Yoko comes by, asks for all the stuff back. She sends the lawyers over. I give them everything. They pay me. I sign it over."

Source: https://www.songfacts.com/blog/writing/80s-video-director-jay-dubin

 

[beatlesaint]

There are so many different versions or different takes on those versions of what happened to these tapes its almost impossible to get to the bottom of. One thing seems for sure, they werent thrown in a bath and set alight

I'm clinging to the hope that somewhere in the Dakota archive possibly unmarked, is a cannister containing a reel of this historic footage.

 

[nutopia999]

There are so many different versions or different takes on those versions of what happened to these tapes its almost impossible to get to the bottom of. One thing seems for sure, they werent thrown in a bath and set alight

I'm clinging to the hope that somewhere in the Dakota archive possibly unmarked, is a cannister containing a reel of this historic footage.

"It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." -- Winston Churchill

"It's a Sardonyx, wrapped in a ponytail, inside a bathtub." -- Dr. Winston O'Churchill

There are three basic scenarios for John's Hit Factory videotape footage:

1. It exists in the Lennon archive
2. It was destroyed
3. It was stolen (or copied)

"I asked John where it was. I've heard two things: 'I tore it up in the bathtub,' 'I sunk it in the pool.'... But I heard that it exists somewhere…" --Jack Douglas (Ken Sharp interview)

"He took the, the whole negative of the film and--put it in the bathtub (laughs) and--and--filled with water. I don't know if it--just filling it with water is going to destroy it, but that--that was how he wanted to destroy it (laughs)." -- Yoko (Jody Denberg interview)

 

[nutopia999]

"We had a full blown video camera shoot in the studio. It wasn't somebody with a little baby camera or something. It was the real deal ....We were filming for two days straight. There's at least 16 plus hours of tape." -- Double Fantasy guitarist Earl Slick

 

[nutopia999]

"...I heard that it exists somewhere…" --Jack Douglas (Producer, Double Fantasy)

 

[nutopia999]

If John really wanted to destroy The Hit Factory videotapes, why did he initially hand them back to Stan Vincent at The Hit Factory for safekeeping before reluctantly accepting them? This account suggests John may not have had any intention to destroy the videotapes and simply filed them away back at The Dakota.

========================================================

Account #1: Ken Sharp interview with Stan Vincent, published in 2010

Stan Vincent (Jack Douglas’s business partner): "At the end of the session I turned around to the video director and said, “Give me all the tapes." So the guy gives me these reel-to-reel videotapes. John and Yoko are walking out and they're headed for the elevator. The door started to close, I run to the elevator, hold the door open, and take these tapes and thrust them at John and said, “Here, take these!" And he turns around and hands them back to me and goes "No, you hold 'em." (laughs) And I take them and go, "No, no, no, here!" And that's the last I saw of those tapes (laughs)."

Source: Starting Over: The Making of John Lennon and Yoko Ono's Double Fantasy, by Ken Sharp, pp. 124-125

 

[nutopia999]

Below are screen captures of the clapperboards that have surfaced to date, suggesting that at least two reels (aka "rolls") of Type C 1-inch videotape have survived from The Hit Factory videotaping session.

• Roll #1 Take 7: Unofficial release - surfaced in 2015 with Aug. 1980 Hit Factory footage of John.
• Roll #1 Take 9: Unofficial release - surfaced in 2015 with Aug. 1980 Hit Factory footage of John.
• Roll #2 Take 13: From the 1992 NHK-TV Yoko documentary Tsukai Ningen-Den which includes Aug. 1980 Hit Factory footage of Yoko.

 

[nutopia999]

A few reasons why John's Hit Factory videotape footage is significant:

• It's the last professional footage of John performing music
• Live vocal by John
• Live rhythm guitar by John
• 4 different camera angles of John
• Parts of a live "oldies" warm up jam may have been videotaped by the director when he was setting levels in preparation for "I'm Losing You"
• Footage of John clowning around with the video production crew and singing a satirical rendition of "Feelings" at the piano may exist on the videotape

Quotes below excerpted from page 121 of Ken Sharp's book: Starting Over: The Making of John Lennon and Yoko Ono's Double Fantasy.